By Jorge Herrera |

I purchased a copy of "MOCTEZUMA'S CHILDREN" by Donald E Chipman.

It is available from the University of Texas Press, Austin,for $25.

Fantastic historical information and pleasure to read. I recommend it.

Those of us who have Petronila de Moctezuma as our ancestor will recognized that

Fernando (Hernan) Cortez is our ancestor as well as Emperor Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin.

Jorge Herrera

14 years 5 months ago

Permalink

Reviewing "Angelfire.com", Aztec Emperors & Decendantes.

Still confusing.

Petronila de Moctezuma is not mentioned in this book. She is also not in the genealogical charts that I have obtained from PARES.

The only document (or more properly an extract of a document) that I have seen that actually names her and Martin Navarro is a request for a dispensation of a marriage involving a great-granddaughter of theirs. This document does not give Petronila's ancestry.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

George, which great-granddaughter was that and what year was her
marriage?

Thanks.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 1:05 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Moctezuma's Children

Petronila de Moctezuma is not mentioned in this book. She is also not
in the genealogical charts that I have obtained from PARES.

The only document (or more properly an extract of a document) that I
have seen that actually names her and Martin Navarro is a request for a
dispensation of a marriage involving a great-granddaughter of theirs.
This document does not give Petronila's ancestry.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

John

This was the marriage of Bartolome Rodriguez Baxo and Thomasa Rosa de Ulloa. Bartolome was formerly married to Teresa Ponse (as named in the document), also known as Maria Theresa Rodrigues Ponse de Ortega. Both of these women are great-grandaughters of Petronila. The document is dated 23 Sep 1703, Nochistlan.

I looked through the matrimonial investigations for of Nochistlan for 1703 on Family Search and did not find it. Also, I did not see any dispensations in this volume which may be the reason it is not there.

Extracts from the document are given in Genealogia de Nochistlan for the descendants of Petronila de Moctezuma and Martin Navarro, Capitulo 58. The dispensation may also be extracted in Maria de la Luz Montejano Hilton's Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, but it will be a while before I can get back to the library to check this. If so, then the document may be easier to find as the Sagrada Mitra has very good citations for references.

I posted the extract at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19247

Perhaps someone in Nuestros Ranchos has an actual copy of it?

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

I descend from bartolome rodriguez baxo and his second wife thomasa rosa de ulloa. I have been unsuccessful in tracing his ancestry. Does anyone have his info.
Thanks rick
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 09:27:18
To:
Reply-To: general@nuestrosranchos.org, gpf13@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Petronila's gr-grandaughter

John

This was the marriage of Bartolome Rodriguez Baxo and Thomasa Rosa de Ulloa. Bartolome was formerly married to Teresa Ponse (as named in the document), also known as Maria Theresa Rodrigues Ponse de Ortega. Both of these women are great-grandaughters of Petronila. The document is dated 23 Sep 1703, Nochistlan.

I looked through the matrimonial investigations for of Nochistlan for 1703 on Family Search and did not find it. Also, I did not see any dispensations in this volume which may be the reason it is not there.

Extracts from the document are given in Genealogia de Nochistlan for the descendants of Petronila de Moctezuma and Martin Navarro, Capitulo 58. The dispensation may also be extracted in Maria de la Luz Montejano Hilton's Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, but it will be a while before I can get back to the library to check this. If so, then the document may be easier to find as the Sagrada Mitra has very good citations for references.

I posted the extract at http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19247

Perhaps someone in Nuestros Ranchos has an actual copy of it?

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

I went back and looked up my records and found that I do have parents listed along with christening and grandparents. I do not recall if I found this info or if someone provided it. I have Bartolome as being baptized on 30Aug1671 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas and his parents as Baltassar RodrigueZ baptized 23Sep1646 (son of Diego Rodriguez and Ana) and Ynes Sandoval(daughter of Juan Sandoval and Maria Magdalena) I have a film #226646 as a source listed.
I descend from baltazar's daughter Josepha beatris Rodriguez Bajo and her husband Jose Manuel Villa el Pando (son of Gabriel Villa el pando and leonor Sepulveda. Villa el Pando is also found as Villalpando. I do not have Gabriel's parents.
R. A. Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:13:00
To:
Reply-To: general@nuestrosranchos.org, gpf13@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolome Rodrigues Baxo

I have not been able to find his parents either. In the record of his first marriage in 1672, it says he is from Zacatecas.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

This info I have cannot be correct if he married in 1672
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 07:27:33
To: ;
Reply-To: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolome Rodrigues Baxo

I went back and looked up my records and found that I do have parents listed along with christening and grandparents. I do not recall if I found this info or if someone provided it. I have Bartolome as being baptized on 30Aug1671 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas and his parents as Baltassar RodrigueZ baptized 23Sep1646 (son of Diego Rodriguez and Ana) and Ynes Sandoval(daughter of Juan Sandoval and Maria Magdalena) I have a film #226646 as a source listed.
I descend from baltazar's daughter Josepha beatris Rodriguez Bajo and her husband Jose Manuel Villa el Pando (son of Gabriel Villa el pando and leonor Sepulveda. Villa el Pando is also found as Villalpando. I do not have Gabriel's parents.
R. A. Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:13:00
To:
Reply-To: general@nuestrosranchos.org, gpf13@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolome Rodrigues Baxo

I have not been able to find his parents either. In the record of his first marriage in 1672, it says he is from Zacatecas.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

The record I have image number 41 in the marriage records for 1663-78 in Aguascalientes (online at Family Search).

The record is for Bartholome Rodrigues and Teresa de Siordia. No parents are named.

I believe this Teresa de Siordia is the same person as Teresa Ponse (granddaughter of Juana de Siordia) named in the matrimonial investigation for Bartholome Rodriguez Bajo.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

What evidence is there that teresa ponce and teresa sordia are the same person? If they are then the info I have on Bartolome is obviously incorrect. If teresa sordia and teresa ponce are not the same person then this could be a different Bartolome Rodriguez.
I am sorry about not inputting any info on my source other than a film number. I need to go back and look at the film.
Rick A. Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 10:39:51
To:
Reply-To: general@nuestrosranchos.org, gpf13@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bartolome Rodrigues Baxo

The record I have image number 41 in the marriage records for 1663-78 in Aguascalientes (online at Family Search).

The record is for Bartholome Rodrigues and Teresa de Siordia. No parents are named.

I believe this Teresa de Siordia is the same person as Teresa Ponse (granddaughter of Juana de Siordia) named in the matrimonial investigation for Bartholome Rodriguez Bajo.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

I think this is suggested by several documents:

The matrimonial investigation shows that Teresa Ponse's grandmother is Juana de Siordia. Which opens the possibility that Teresa could have used this name.

There are three baptisms of children of Bartolome Rodrigues Bajo:

Juan, chr 29 Mar 1676 (Ags, film 299422, online image 26), mother: Teresa de Siordia

Juana, chr 29 June 1680 (Ags, film 299422, image 104), mother: Teresa Ponse de Hortega

Nicolas, chr 28 Nov 1687 (Ojuelos, film 640149; no online image), mother: Theresa de Siordia. I believe he belongs to this family, even tho his baptism is in Ojuelos.

I also have a daughter named Francisca is this family, but no baptism date. I estimate her birth date about 1681, most likely Aguascalientes.

The birthdates of the two children Juan and Juana are indicative of a birthdate for Bartolome around 1650. If he was married in the very early 1670s, he could have been about 20 years old.

While these documents are clearly not absolute proof, they are certainly suggestive of the conclusion.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

I descend from the Rodríguez Ponce family. Nicolás Rodríguez Ponce was married twice. First to Juana de Ortega on 21 April 1648 in Aguascalientes. Eventhough I did not find any kids for this family I believe George has a reason to believe this. Firstly Teresa appears to use Siordia, Ponce and Ortega, very close names linked to this line. The Rodríguez Ponce were known to shorten their name to Ponce.

My ancestor Nicolás Rodríguez Ponce was born ca. 1625 his parents were Francisco Rodríguez Ponce a local miner and Juana de Siordia married in Santa María de los Lagos 27 Feb 1620. Francisco was from Lepe en los Reinos de Castilla. Lepe is a town in Huelva province of Andalucía.

Juana de Ortega was daughter of Francisco Macías Valadez and Jacinta Pérez de Ortega. I confirmed that Jacinta was in fact daughter of Alonso Pérez de Ortega and María Núñez Vela y Muñoz de Xérez. I’ll have to check which child of Jacinta’s brother Alonso Pérez de Ortega, but one of them as the padrinos mentions Jacinta de Ortega “su hermana” [Alonso Pérez de Ortega]. I did not see this and almost missed it but was glad I was able to extend this bit on the line.

It is not coincidence that Teresa used that names Ortega, Ponce and Siordia after her grandmothers. I hope this helps a bit.

Daniel Méndez Camino

George, which great-granddaughter was that and what year was her
marriage?

Thanks.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: gpf13@aol.com
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 1:05 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Moctezuma's Children

Petronila de Moctezuma is not mentioned in this book. She is also not
in the genealogical charts that I have obtained from PARES.

The only document (or more properly an extract of a document) that I
have seen that actually names her and Martin Navarro is a request for a
dispensation of a marriage involving a great-granddaughter of theirs.
This document does not give Petronila's ancestry.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

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